2024 Mixed effect model autocorrelation

of freedom obtained by the same method used in the most recently ﬁt mixed model. If option dfmethod() is not speciﬁed in the previous mixed command, option small is not allowed. For certain methods, the degrees of freedom for some linear combinations may not be available. See Small-sample inference for ﬁxed effects in[ME] mixed for more .... Cast of joseline

Sep 16, 2018 · Recently I have made good use of Matlab's built-in functions for making linear mixed effects. Currently I am trying to model time-series data (neuronal activity) from cognitive experiments with the fitlme() function using two continuous fixed effects (linear speed and acceleration) and several, hierarchically nested categorical random factors (subject identity, experimental session and binned ... Ultimately I'd like to include spatial autocorrelation with corSpatial(form = ~ lat + long) in the GAMM model, or s(lat,long) in the GAM model, but even in basic form I can't get the model to run. If it helps understand the structure of the data, I've added dummy code below (with 200,000 rows):Dec 24, 2014 · Is it accurate to say that we used a linear mixed model to account for missing data (i.e. non-response; technology issues) and participant-level effects (i.e. how frequently each participant used ... Apr 11, 2023 · Inspecting and modeling residual autocorrelation with gaps in linear mixed effects models. Here I generate a dataset where measurements of response variable y and covariates x1 and x2 are collected on 30 individuals through time. Each individual is denoted by a unique ID . lmer (lme4) glmmTMB (glmmTMB) We will start by fitting the linear mixed effects model. data.hier.lme <- lme(y ~ x, random = ~1 | block, data.hier, method = "REML") The hierarchical random effects structure is defined by the random= parameter. In this case, random=~1|block indicates that blocks are random effects and that the intercept should be ...Linear mixed models allow for modeling fixed, random and repeated effects in analysis of variance models. “Factor effects are either fixed or random depending on how levels of factors that appear in the study are selected. An effect is called fixed if the levels in the study represent all possible levels of theApr 15, 2016 · 7. I want to specify different random effects in a model using nlme::lme (data at the bottom). The random effects are: 1) intercept and position varies over subject; 2) intercept varies over comparison. This is straightforward using lme4::lmer: lmer (rating ~ 1 + position + (1 + position | subject) + (1 | comparison), data=d) > ... Sep 22, 2015 · $\begingroup$ it's more a please check that I have taken care of the random effects, autocorrelation, and a variance that increases with the mean properly. $\endgroup$ – M.T.West Sep 22, 2015 at 12:15 Mixed-effects models allow multiple levels of variability; AKA hierarchical models, multilevel models, multistratum models; Good references on mixed-effects models: Bolker [1–3] Gelman & Hill [4] Pinheiro & Bates [5].Apr 11, 2023 · Inspecting and modeling residual autocorrelation with gaps in linear mixed effects models. Here I generate a dataset where measurements of response variable y and covariates x1 and x2 are collected on 30 individuals through time. Each individual is denoted by a unique ID . Apr 11, 2023 · Inspecting and modeling residual autocorrelation with gaps in linear mixed effects models. Here I generate a dataset where measurements of response variable y and covariates x1 and x2 are collected on 30 individuals through time. Each individual is denoted by a unique ID . Nov 1, 2019 · Therefore, even greater sampling rates will be required when autocorrelation is present to meet the levels prescribed by analyses of the power and precision when estimating individual variation using mixed effect models (e.g., Wolak et al. 2012; Dingemanse and Dochtermann 2013) Chapter 10 Mixed Effects Models. Chapter 10. Mixed Effects Models. The assumption of independent observations is often not supported and dependent data arises in a wide variety of situations. The dependency structure could be very simple such as rabbits within a litter being correlated and the litters being independent.At this point, it is important to highlight how spatial data is internally stored in a SpatialGridDataFrame and the latent effects described in Table 7.1. For some models, INLA considers data sorted by column, i.e., a vector with the first column of the grid from top to bottom, followed by the second column and so on. In order to assess the effect of autocorrelation on biasing our estimates of R when not accounted for, the simulated data was fit with random intercept models, ignoring the effect of autocorrelation. We aimed to study the effect of two factors of sampling on the estimated repeatability: 1) the period of time between successive observations, and ...Eight models were estimated in which subjects nervousness values were regressed on all aforementioned predictors. The first model was a standard mixed-effects model with random effects for the intercept and the slope but no autocorrelation (Model 1 in Tables 2 and 3). The second model included such an autocorrelation (Model 2).Aug 13, 2021 · 1 Answer. In principle, I believe that this would work. I would suggest to check what type of residuals are required by moran.test: deviance, response, partial, etc. glm.summaries defaults to deviance residuals, so if this is what you want to test, that's fine. But if you want the residuals on the response scale, that is, the observed response ... Mixed Models, i.e. models with both fixed and random effects arise in a variety of research situations. Split plots, strip plots, repeated measures, multi-site clinical trials, hierar chical linear models, random coefficients, analysis of covariance are all special cases of the mixed model.Sep 22, 2015 · $\begingroup$ it's more a please check that I have taken care of the random effects, autocorrelation, and a variance that increases with the mean properly. $\endgroup$ – M.T.West Sep 22, 2015 at 12:15 GLMMs. In principle, we simply define some kind of correlation structure on the random-effects variance-covariance matrix of the latent variables; there is not a particularly strong distinction between a correlation structure on the observation-level random effects and one on some other grouping structure (e.g., if there were a random effect of year (with multiple measurements within each year ...Here's a mixed model without autocorrelation included: cmod_lme <- lme(GS.NEE ~ cYear, data=mc2, method="REML", random = ~ 1 + cYear | Site) and you can explore the autocorrelation by using plot(ACF(cmod_lme)) .Feb 28, 2020 · There is spatial autocorrelation in the data which has been identified using a variogram and Moran's I. The problem is I tried to run a lme model, with a random effect of the State that district is within: mod.cor<-lme(FLkm ~ Monsoon.Precip + Monsoon.Temp,correlation=corGaus(form=~x+y,nugget=TRUE), data=NE1, random = ~1|State) 1 Answer. In principle, I believe that this would work. I would suggest to check what type of residuals are required by moran.test: deviance, response, partial, etc. glm.summaries defaults to deviance residuals, so if this is what you want to test, that's fine. But if you want the residuals on the response scale, that is, the observed response ...a random effect for the autocorrelation. After introducing the extended mixed-effect location scale (E-MELS), ... mixed-effect models that have been, for example, combined with Lasso regression (e ... You should try many of them and keep the best model. In this case the spatial autocorrelation in considered as continous and could be approximated by a global function. Second, you could go with the package mgcv, and add a bivariate spline (spatial coordinates) to your model. This way, you could capture a spatial pattern and even map it.Aug 9, 2023 · Arguments. the value of the lag 1 autocorrelation, which must be between -1 and 1. Defaults to 0 (no autocorrelation). a one sided formula of the form ~ t, or ~ t | g, specifying a time covariate t and, optionally, a grouping factor g. A covariate for this correlation structure must be integer valued. When a grouping factor is present in form ... See full list on link.springer.com It is a linear mixed model, with log-transformed OM regressed on marsh site (categorical), marsh type (categorical), soil category (categorical), depth (numerical, based on ordinal depth ranges), and the interaction between depth and marsh type; marsh site effects are modeled as random, on which the ICAR spatial autocorrelation structure is ...in nlme, it is possible to specify the variance-covariance matrix for the random effects (e.g. an AR (1)); it is not possible in lme4. Now, lme4 can easily handle very huge number of random effects (hence, number of individuals in a given study) thanks to its C part and the use of sparse matrices. The nlme package has somewhat been superseded ... Mar 29, 2021 · Ultimately I'd like to include spatial autocorrelation with corSpatial(form = ~ lat + long) in the GAMM model, or s(lat,long) in the GAM model, but even in basic form I can't get the model to run. If it helps understand the structure of the data, I've added dummy code below (with 200,000 rows): Mixed Models, i.e. models with both fixed and random effects arise in a variety of research situations. Split plots, strip plots, repeated measures, multi-site clinical trials, hierar chical linear models, random coefficients, analysis of covariance are all special cases of the mixed model. Mar 29, 2021 · Ultimately I'd like to include spatial autocorrelation with corSpatial(form = ~ lat + long) in the GAMM model, or s(lat,long) in the GAM model, but even in basic form I can't get the model to run. If it helps understand the structure of the data, I've added dummy code below (with 200,000 rows): Linear mixed model fit by maximum likelihood [’lmerMod’] AIC BIC logLik deviance df.resid 22.5 25.5 -8.3 16.5 17 Random effects: Groups Name Variance Std.Dev. operator (Intercept) 0.04575 0.2139 *** Operator var Residual 0.10625 0.3260 estimate is smaller. Number of obs: 20, groups: operator, 4 Results in smaller SE for the overall Fixed ... Feb 3, 2021 · I have temporal blocks in my data frame, so I took the effect of time dependency through a random intercept in a glmer model. Now I want to test the spatial autocorrelation in the residuals but I’m not sure if the test procedure based on the residual is the same as for the fixed-effect models since now I have time dependency. Recently I have made good use of Matlab's built-in functions for making linear mixed effects. Currently I am trying to model time-series data (neuronal activity) from cognitive experiments with the fitlme() function using two continuous fixed effects (linear speed and acceleration) and several, hierarchically nested categorical random factors (subject identity, experimental session and binned ...GLMMs. In principle, we simply define some kind of correlation structure on the random-effects variance-covariance matrix of the latent variables; there is not a particularly strong distinction between a correlation structure on the observation-level random effects and one on some other grouping structure (e.g., if there were a random effect of year (with multiple measurements within each year ...An extension of the mixed-effects growth model that considers between-person differences in the within-subject variance and the autocorrelation. Stat Med. 2022 Feb 10;41 (3):471-482. doi: 10.1002/sim.9280.Dec 11, 2017 · Mixed-effect linear models. Whereas the classic linear model with n observational units and p predictors has the vectorized form. where and are design matrices that jointly represent the set of predictors. Random effects models include only an intercept as the fixed effect and a defined set of random effects. Nov 1, 2019 · Therefore, even greater sampling rates will be required when autocorrelation is present to meet the levels prescribed by analyses of the power and precision when estimating individual variation using mixed effect models (e.g., Wolak et al. 2012; Dingemanse and Dochtermann 2013) Jul 9, 2023 · For a linear mixed-effects model (LMM), as fit by lmer, this integral can be evaluated exactly. For a GLMM the integral must be approximated. For a GLMM the integral must be approximated. The most reliable approximation for GLMMs is adaptive Gauss-Hermite quadrature, at present implemented only for models with a single scalar random effect. Is it accurate to say that we used a linear mixed model to account for missing data (i.e. non-response; technology issues) and participant-level effects (i.e. how frequently each participant used ...Mixed Models (GLMM), and as our random effects logistic regression model is a special case of that model it fits our needs. An overview about the macro and the theory behind is given in Chapter 11 of Littell et al., 1996. Briefly, the estimating algorithm uses the principle of quasi-likelihood and an approximation to the likelihood function of ... Abstract. The ‘DHARMa’ package uses a simulation-based approach to create readily interpretable scaled (quantile) residuals for fitted (generalized) linear mixed models. Currently supported are linear and generalized linear (mixed) models from ‘lme4’ (classes ‘lmerMod’, ‘glmerMod’), ‘glmmTMB’, ‘GLMMadaptive’ and ‘spaMM ...c (Claudia Czado, TU Munich) – 11 – Likelihood Inference for LMM: 1) Estimation of β and γ for known G and R Estimation of β: Using (5), we have as MLE or weighted LSE of β At this point, it is important to highlight how spatial data is internally stored in a SpatialGridDataFrame and the latent effects described in Table 7.1. For some models, INLA considers data sorted by column, i.e., a vector with the first column of the grid from top to bottom, followed by the second column and so on.Growth curve models (possibly Latent GCM) Mixed effects models. 이 모두는 mixed model 의 다른 종류를 말한다. 어떤 용어들은 역사가 깊고, 어떤 것들은 특수 분야에서 자주 사용되고, 어떤 것들은 특정 데이터 구조를 뜻하고, 어떤 것들은 특수한 케이스들이다. Mixed effects 혹은 mixed ... A random effects model that contains only random intercepts, which is the most common use of mixed effect modeling in randomized trials, assumes that the responses within subject are exchangeable. This can be seen from the statement of the linear mixed effects model with random intercepts.Phi = 0.914; > - we have a significant treatment effect; > - and when I calculate effective degrees of freedom (after Zuur et al "Mixed Effects Models and Extensions in Ecology with R" pg.113) I get 13.1; hence we aren't getting much extra information from each time-series given the level of autocorrelation, but at least we have dealt with data ...Nov 1, 2019 · Therefore, even greater sampling rates will be required when autocorrelation is present to meet the levels prescribed by analyses of the power and precision when estimating individual variation using mixed effect models (e.g., Wolak et al. 2012; Dingemanse and Dochtermann 2013) You should try many of them and keep the best model. In this case the spatial autocorrelation in considered as continous and could be approximated by a global function. Second, you could go with the package mgcv, and add a bivariate spline (spatial coordinates) to your model. This way, you could capture a spatial pattern and even map it.Models all contained the same fixed effects, were compared using AIC, and were fitted by REML (to allow comparison of different correlation structures by AIC). I'm using the R package nlme and the gls function. Question 1. The GLS models' residuals still display almost identical cyclical patterns when plotted against time.a combination of both models (ARMA). random effects that model independence among observations from the same site using GAMMs. That is, in addition to changing the basis as with the nottem example, we can also add complexity to the model by incorporating an autocorrelation structure or mixed effects using the gamm() function in the mgcv package Oct 11, 2022 · The code below shows how the random effects (intercepts) of mixed models without autocorrelation terms can be extracted and plotted. However, this approach does not work when modelling autocorrelation in glmmTMB. Use reproducible example data from this question: glmmTMB with autocorrelation of irregular times Models all contained the same fixed effects, were compared using AIC, and were fitted by REML (to allow comparison of different correlation structures by AIC). I'm using the R package nlme and the gls function. Question 1. The GLS models' residuals still display almost identical cyclical patterns when plotted against time.Linear Mixed Effects Models. Linear Mixed Effects models are used for regression analyses involving dependent data. Such data arise when working with longitudinal and other study designs in which multiple observations are made on each subject. Some specific linear mixed effects models are. Random intercepts models, where all responses in a ... Phi = 0.914; > - we have a significant treatment effect; > - and when I calculate effective degrees of freedom (after Zuur et al "Mixed Effects Models and Extensions in Ecology with R" pg.113) I get 13.1; hence we aren't getting much extra information from each time-series given the level of autocorrelation, but at least we have dealt with data ...Gamma mixed effects models using the Gamma() or Gamma.fam() family object. Linear mixed effects models with right and left censored data using the censored.normal() family object. Users may also specify their own log-density function for the repeated measurements response variable, and the internal algorithms will take care of the optimization.in nlme, it is possible to specify the variance-covariance matrix for the random effects (e.g. an AR (1)); it is not possible in lme4. Now, lme4 can easily handle very huge number of random effects (hence, number of individuals in a given study) thanks to its C part and the use of sparse matrices. The nlme package has somewhat been superseded ... Chapter 10 Mixed Effects Models. Chapter 10. Mixed Effects Models. The assumption of independent observations is often not supported and dependent data arises in a wide variety of situations. The dependency structure could be very simple such as rabbits within a litter being correlated and the litters being independent. The code below shows how the random effects (intercepts) of mixed models without autocorrelation terms can be extracted and plotted. However, this approach does not work when modelling autocorrelation in glmmTMB. Use reproducible example data from this question: glmmTMB with autocorrelation of irregular timesAn extension of the mixed-effects growth model that considers between-person differences in the within-subject variance and the autocorrelation. Stat Med. 2022 Feb 10;41 (3):471-482. doi: 10.1002/sim.9280.Zuur et al. in \"Mixed Effects Models and Extensions in Ecology with R\" makes the point that fitting any temporal autocorrelation structure is usually far more important than getting the perfect structure. Start with AR1 and try more complicated structures if that seems insufficient.1 Answer. Mixed models are often a good choice when you have repeated measures, such as here, within whales. lme from the nlme package can fit mixed models and also handle autocorrelation based on a AR (1) process, where values of X X at t − 1 t − 1 determine the values of X X at t t.Sep 16, 2018 · Recently I have made good use of Matlab's built-in functions for making linear mixed effects. Currently I am trying to model time-series data (neuronal activity) from cognitive experiments with the fitlme() function using two continuous fixed effects (linear speed and acceleration) and several, hierarchically nested categorical random factors (subject identity, experimental session and binned ... Your second model is a random-slopes model; it allows for random variation in the individual-level slopes (and in the intercept, and a correlation between slopes and intercepts) m2 <- update(m1, random = ~ minutes|ID) I'd suggest the random-slopes model is more appropriate (see e.g. Schielzeth and Forstmeier 2009). Some other considerations: Eight models were estimated in which subjects nervousness values were regressed on all aforementioned predictors. The first model was a standard mixed-effects model with random effects for the intercept and the slope but no autocorrelation (Model 1 in Tables 2 and 3). The second model included such an autocorrelation (Model 2). of freedom obtained by the same method used in the most recently ﬁt mixed model. If option dfmethod() is not speciﬁed in the previous mixed command, option small is not allowed. For certain methods, the degrees of freedom for some linear combinations may not be available. See Small-sample inference for ﬁxed effects in[ME] mixed for more ... The first model was a longitudinal mixed-effect model with a first-order autocorrelation structure, and the second model was the E-MELS. Both were implemented as described above. The third model was a longitudinal mixed-effect model with a Lasso penalty. Feb 3, 2021 · I have temporal blocks in my data frame, so I took the effect of time dependency through a random intercept in a glmer model. Now I want to test the spatial autocorrelation in the residuals but I’m not sure if the test procedure based on the residual is the same as for the fixed-effect models since now I have time dependency. How is it possible that the model fits perfectly the data while the fixed effect is far from overfitting ? Is it normal that including the temporal autocorrelation process gives such R² and almost a perfect fit ? (largely due to the random part, fixed part often explains a small part of the variance in my data). Is the model still interpretable ?in nlme, it is possible to specify the variance-covariance matrix for the random effects (e.g. an AR (1)); it is not possible in lme4. Now, lme4 can easily handle very huge number of random effects (hence, number of individuals in a given study) thanks to its C part and the use of sparse matrices. The nlme package has somewhat been superseded ... Mixed Models, i.e. models with both fixed and random effects arise in a variety of research situations. Split plots, strip plots, repeated measures, multi-site clinical trials, hierar chical linear models, random coefficients, analysis of covariance are all special cases of the mixed model. Dec 12, 2022 · It is a linear mixed model, with log-transformed OM regressed on marsh site (categorical), marsh type (categorical), soil category (categorical), depth (numerical, based on ordinal depth ranges), and the interaction between depth and marsh type; marsh site effects are modeled as random, on which the ICAR spatial autocorrelation structure is ... Mixed Models, i.e. models with both fixed and random effects arise in a variety of research situations. Split plots, strip plots, repeated measures, multi-site clinical trials, hierar chical linear models, random coefficients, analysis of covariance are all special cases of the mixed model.6 Linear mixed-effects models with one random factor. 6.1 Learning objectives; 6.2 When, and why, would you want to replace conventional analyses with linear mixed-effects modeling? 6.3 Example: Independent-samples $t$-test on multi-level data. 6.3.1 When is a random-intercepts model appropriate?Apr 11, 2023 · Inspecting and modeling residual autocorrelation with gaps in linear mixed effects models. Here I generate a dataset where measurements of response variable y and covariates x1 and x2 are collected on 30 individuals through time. Each individual is denoted by a unique ID . Nov 1, 2019 · Therefore, even greater sampling rates will be required when autocorrelation is present to meet the levels prescribed by analyses of the power and precision when estimating individual variation using mixed effect models (e.g., Wolak et al. 2012; Dingemanse and Dochtermann 2013) How is it possible that the model fits perfectly the data while the fixed effect is far from overfitting ? Is it normal that including the temporal autocorrelation process gives such R² and almost a perfect fit ? (largely due to the random part, fixed part often explains a small part of the variance in my data). Is the model still interpretable ?In the present article, we suggested an extension of the mixed-effects location scale model that allows a researcher to include random effects for the means, the within-person residual variance, and the autocorrelation.

Zuur et al. in \"Mixed Effects Models and Extensions in Ecology with R\" makes the point that fitting any temporal autocorrelation structure is usually far more important than getting the perfect structure. Start with AR1 and try more complicated structures if that seems insufficient.. Lauren lake

Mixed Effects Models - Autocorrelation. Jul. 1, 2021 • 0 likes • 171 views. Download Now. Download to read offline. Education. Lecture 19 from my mixed-effects modeling course: Autocorrelation in longitudinal and time-series data. Scott Fraundorf Follow.You should try many of them and keep the best model. In this case the spatial autocorrelation in considered as continous and could be approximated by a global function. Second, you could go with the package mgcv, and add a bivariate spline (spatial coordinates) to your model. This way, you could capture a spatial pattern and even map it.Aug 8, 2018 · 3. MIXED EFFECTS MODELS 3.1 Overview of mixed effects models When a regression contains both random and fixed effects, it is said to be a mixed effects model, or simply, a mixed model. Fixed effects are those with which most researchers are familiar. Any covariate that is assumed to have the same effect for all responses throughout the How is it possible that the model fits perfectly the data while the fixed effect is far from overfitting ? Is it normal that including the temporal autocorrelation process gives such R² and almost a perfect fit ? (largely due to the random part, fixed part often explains a small part of the variance in my data). Is the model still interpretable ?a combination of both models (ARMA). random effects that model independence among observations from the same site using GAMMs. That is, in addition to changing the basis as with the nottem example, we can also add complexity to the model by incorporating an autocorrelation structure or mixed effects using the gamm() function in the mgcv packageThe code below shows how the random effects (intercepts) of mixed models without autocorrelation terms can be extracted and plotted. However, this approach does not work when modelling autocorrelation in glmmTMB. Use reproducible example data from this question: glmmTMB with autocorrelation of irregular timesI'm trying to model the evolution in time of one weed species (E. crus galli) within 4 different cropping systems (=treatment). I have 5 years of data spaced out equally in time and two repetitions (block) for each cropping system. Hence, block is a random factor. Measures were repeated each year on the same block (--> repeated measure mixed ...For a linear mixed-effects model (LMM), as fit by lmer, this integral can be evaluated exactly. For a GLMM the integral must be approximated. For a GLMM the integral must be approximated. The most reliable approximation for GLMMs is adaptive Gauss-Hermite quadrature, at present implemented only for models with a single scalar random effect.Sep 16, 2018 · Recently I have made good use of Matlab's built-in functions for making linear mixed effects. Currently I am trying to model time-series data (neuronal activity) from cognitive experiments with the fitlme() function using two continuous fixed effects (linear speed and acceleration) and several, hierarchically nested categorical random factors (subject identity, experimental session and binned ... I'm trying to model the evolution in time of one weed species (E. crus galli) within 4 different cropping systems (=treatment). I have 5 years of data spaced out equally in time and two repetitions (block) for each cropping system. Hence, block is a random factor. Measures were repeated each year on the same block (--> repeated measure mixed ...Mixed Models, i.e. models with both fixed and random effects arise in a variety of research situations. Split plots, strip plots, repeated measures, multi-site clinical trials, hierar chical linear models, random coefficients, analysis of covariance are all special cases of the mixed model. Feb 28, 2020 · There is spatial autocorrelation in the data which has been identified using a variogram and Moran's I. The problem is I tried to run a lme model, with a random effect of the State that district is within: mod.cor<-lme(FLkm ~ Monsoon.Precip + Monsoon.Temp,correlation=corGaus(form=~x+y,nugget=TRUE), data=NE1, random = ~1|State) Recently I have made good use of Matlab's built-in functions for making linear mixed effects. Currently I am trying to model time-series data (neuronal activity) from cognitive experiments with the fitlme() function using two continuous fixed effects (linear speed and acceleration) and several, hierarchically nested categorical random factors (subject identity, experimental session and binned ...This example will use a mixed effects model to describe the repeated measures analysis, using the lme function in the nlme package. Student is treated as a random variable in the model. The autocorrelation structure is described with the correlation statement.I have a dataset of 12 days of diary data. I am trying to use lme to model the effect of sleep quality on stress, with random intercept effects of participant and random slope effect of sleep quality. I am not particularly interested in asking whether there was change over time from diaryday 1 to 12, just in accounting for the time variable.a combination of both models (ARMA). random effects that model independence among observations from the same site using GAMMs. That is, in addition to changing the basis as with the nottem example, we can also add complexity to the model by incorporating an autocorrelation structure or mixed effects using the gamm() function in the mgcv package.

Zuur et al. in \"Mixed Effects Models and Extensions in Ecology with R\" makes the point that fitting any temporal autocorrelation structure is usually far more important than getting the perfect structure. Start with AR1 and try more complicated structures if that seems insufficient.. Lauren lake

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